Mr. RYKIE-Then as the matter stands at present there is no inducement to a contributor to take a share because he gets no more than anyone else!
Mr. NELSON-We have held out no inducement except in a general way.
Mr. RYRIE-In other companies there are inducements?
Mr. NELSON-And there may be in this, I do not know. It is not arranged yet.
Mr. RYRIE-The shares are at a premium in the market, are they not?
Mr. NELSON-They are at a premium.
Mr. RYRIE-And the Company has gone on for ten years and been prosperous? How is it you have only discovered now that the shares are too large?
Mr. NELSON-It has come into other hands, and we are going to make it more prosperous.
Mr. RYRIE-I think ten years a very good test of the prosperity of the office.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-There has been a change in the management.
Mr. NELSON-Yes. I now produce letters and telegrams from Shanghai and elsewhere supporting the petition, and these make a majority.
Mr. KESWICK-But those names are in the memorial?
Mr. NELSON-No, not so.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-You said something about Amoy?
Mr. NELSON-Yes, our agent writes very strongly to me on the subject, and also our agent at Yokohama.
Parts of the letters were read.
Mr. KESWICK-Could you not have met the difficulty by having a fresh issue of shares at less value?
Mr. NELSON-That could be done, but we don't wish to do so.
Mr. KESWICK-The evidence of that paper does not go to support your evidence?
Mr. NELSON-It is the opinion of one man. I could speak without this.
Mr. KESWICK-It appears to me, Your Excellency, that the evidence of the letters just read is conclusive as to the incorrectness of the paragraph in the preamble that the shares are too large. They are not too large, but not sufficiently numerous to spread over China and Japan.
The GOVERNOR-May not both these propositions be true—that they are too large and not sufficiently numerous?
Mr. KESWICK-I should think not with only 200 shares.
Mr. NELSON-I am aware of an instance in which the price of a share has been a drawback from a desirable person becoming a shareholder in the Company. In the letter from Amoy and the telegram from Shanghai the same thing is expressed. People with limited capital wish to become shareholders, but the amount of the shares prevents them, because it is too large an amount of their capital to keep locked up.
The GOVERNOR-The real object of the Bill is to enhance their value?
Mr. NELSON-It will increase their real value to the shareholders, but I question whether it will increase their marketable value.
Mr. KESWICK-I can hardly see how they can be considered too large, seeing they are at a premium. There must be people seeking them or they would not be at a premium.
Mr. NELSON-It has come to my knowledge that people who have been desirous to buy one share have not been able to get it.
Mr. KESWICK-That bears out what I said.
Mr. NELSON-But I know of a case myself in which the price of the share has been too much.
Mr. LOWCOCK-Do you know of any case in which a man has not been able to sell his shares?
Mr. NELSON-I cannot call a case to mind.
The COLONIAL SECRETARY—By this Bill you divide the shares. It is giving a larger number at less value and making them more marketable?
Mr. NELSON-Yes.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-All your evidence has related to the transferable value of the shares, but where is your evidence on the management of the Company, which is an entirely different matter? The management is one thing and a larger business another.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL read the words of the preamble "for the advantageous management of the affairs of the Company."
Mr. NELSON-That is simply a diction error of...
The CHIEF JUSTICE-Either is quite a legitimate reason for coming here, but where is your evidence of what is alleged?
Mr. NELSON-The management would be better—that is, the success would be greater.
The GOVERNOR suggested that the witness should be asked one question at a time and proceeded—Are you of opinion or have you any doubt that by reducing the value of the shares as proposed it would render the shares more marketable?
Mr. NELSON-I have no doubt that it would.
Mr. RYRIE-Do you think that a benefit to the Company?
Mr. NELSON-I do, but I think Mr. Ryrie is making a mistake as to the meaning of the Governor. They would be more marketable to desirable shareholders.
Mr. RYRIE-You would not like to see your shares changing hands too often?
Mr. NELSON-We will see to that.
Mr. RYRIE-I don't think the directors of any insurance company believe that there is anything less desirable than to see their shares changing hands too often.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-That carried too far.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-Yes.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-I believe you have applied to His Excellency for the powers of this Ordinance in a formal letter?
Mr. NELSON-In a formal letter.
Mr. RYRIE-How is it there were three or four who did not sign the memorial? Do they object?
Mr. NELSON-I have not heard of anyone absolutely objecting. I know one or two have said they would like to consider the matter further.
Mr. RYRIE-Are there not three or four in the Colony who have not consented to sign that?
Mr. NELSON-I should think there are. The Secretary will tell you that.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-You made your application by direction of the Board?
Mr. NELSON-Yes.
The GOVERNOR-Has any shareholder to your knowledge recorded his objection to this Bill?
Mr. NELSON-Certainly not. I know of no shareholder who does object.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-None have objected to you?
Mr. NELSON-No.
Mr. RYRIE-Did they not object when it was taken to them for signature?
Mr. NELSON-As I said before, two or three, when it was taken to them, said they would like to consider it.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-Then they did not object?
Mr. NELSON-There was no formal objection, so far as I am aware.
Mr. RYRIE-These seven shares you say you have still unalloted, have you had no application for them?
Mr. NELSON-We have invited none.
Mr. RYRIE-Why?
Mr. NELSON-For certain reasons. I can state them if you wish.
Mr. RYRIE-Do you think you could not place them immediately?
Mr. NELSON-Yes.
Mr. KESWICK-But have there been no applications?
Mr. NELSON-None have been invited.
Mr. KESWICK-But have there been no applications?
Mr. NELSON-No; it is not generally known that we have these shares in our hands. It has not been notified to the public in any way.
Mr. KESWICK-You say $1,000 has been paid on each of the seven shares?
Mr. NELSON-Yes, they belonged to partners in Augustine Heard & Co., and became forfeited to us on their failure.
Mr. KESWICK-I think it ought to be more clearly stated that the extension of the number of the shares is as great an object, if not a greater object, than the reduction of the amount.
Mr. NELSON-What we want to do is to reduce the amount with a view of inducing a larger number of shareholders. Both these objects will be achieved.
Mr. RYRIE-Have you formed any idea of how many you will have at your disposal to re-allot?
Mr. NELSON-We will have none.
Mr. RYRIE-How do you propose to get them?
Mr. NELSON-Because there will be more in the market.
Mr. RYRIE-That seems very problematical. I know if I had one share and it was divided into three I would not sell one. If a share were sold to any undesirable person—
Mr. NELSON-We would not admit him. It is the same as in other companies.
175
I
Mr. RYKIE-Then us the matter stands at present there is no inducement to a contributor to take a share because he gets no more than anyone else!
Mr. NELSON-We have held ont no induce- ment except in a general way.
Mr. RYRIE-In other companies there are inducements ?
Mr. NELSON And there may be in this, I do not know. It is not arranged yet.
Mr. RYRIE-The shares are at a premium in the market, are they not?
Mr. NELSON They are at a premium.
Mr. RYBIE And the Company has goue on for ten years and been prosperous? How is it you have only discovered now that the shares are too large
Mr. NELSON-It has come into other hande. aud we are going to make it more prosperova,
Mr. RTRIE-I think ten years a very good test of the prosperity of the office.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-There has been
a change in the management P
Mr. NELSON-Yes. I now produce letters and telegrams from Shanghai and elsewhere supporting the petition, and these make a ma- jority.
Mr. KESWICK-But those names are in the memorial?
Mr. NELSON--No, not so.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-You said some- thing about Amoy?
Mr. NELSON-Yos, our agent writes very strongly to me on the subject, and also our agent at Yokohama.
Parts of the letters were read,
Mr. Brers-Could you not have met the difficulty by having a fresh issue of shares at lese value P
Mr. NELSON-That could be done, but we don't wish to do so,
Mr. KESWICK-The evidence of that paper does not go to support your evidence ?
Mr. NELSON-It is the opinion of one mau.
I could speak without this.
Mr. KESWICK-It appeara to me Your Ex- cellency that the evidence of the letters just read is conclusive as to the incorrectness of the paragraph in the preamble that the shares are: too large. They are not too large, but not suf Giciently numerous to spread over China and Japan.
The GOVERNOR-May not both these pro- positions be true--that they are too large and not sufficiently numerous.
Mr. KESWICK-I should think not with only 200 shares.
Mr. NELSON-I am aware of an instance in which the price of a share has been a drawback from a desirable person becoming a shareholder in the Company. In the letter from Amoy and the telegram from Shanghai the same thing is expressed. People with limited capital wish to become shareholders, but the amount of the shares prevents them, beeanse it is too large an amount of their capital to keep locked up."
The GOVERNOR-The real object of the Bill is to enhance their value?
Mr. NELSON -It will increase their real value to the shareholders, but I question whether it will increase their marketable value.
Mr. KESWICK-I can hardly see how they can be considered too large, seeing they are at a premium. There must be people seeking them or they would not be at a premium.
Mr. NELSON-It has come to my knowledge that people who have been desirous to buy one share have not been able to get it.
Mr. KESWICK-That bears out what I said. Mr. NELSON-But I know of a case myself in which the price of the share has been too much.
Mr. Lowcock-Do you know of any case in which a man has not been able to sell his shares? Mr. NELSON-I cannot call a case to mind. The COLONIAL SECRETARY—By this Bill you divide the shares. It is giving a larger number at less value and making them more market- able?
Mr. NELSON-Yea.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-All your evidence bas related to the transferable value of the shares, Bat where is your evidence on the management of the Company, which is an entirely different matter? The management is one thing and a larger businesss another.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL read the words of the preamble "for the advantageous manage- ment of the affairs of the Company,'
Mr. NELSON-That is simply au diction.
error of
The CHIEF JUSTICE-Either is quite a legi. timate reason for coming here, but where is your evidence of what is alleged?
:
Mr. NELSON-The management would be better-that is, the success would be greater.
The GOVERNOR Ruggested that the witness should be asked one gasstion at a time and pro- ceeded-åre you of opinion or have you any doubt that by reducing the value of the shares į as proposed it would render the shares more warketable P
Mr. NELSON-I have no doubt that it would. Mr. RYBIE Do you think that a benefit to the Company?
Mr. NALBON-I do, but I think Mr. Ryrie is making a mistake as to the meaning of the Governor. They would be more marketable to desirable shareholders.
Mr. RYRTE-You would not like to see your shares obanzing hands too often?
Mr. NELSON We will see to that. Mr. RYBIE-I don't think the directors of any insurance company believe that there is anything less desirable than to see their shares obanging hands too often.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-That carried too far.
The Cuier JUSTICE-Yes.
can be
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-I believe you bave applied to His Excellency for the powers
of this Ordinance in a formal letter ?
Mr. NELSON-In a formal letter.
Mr. RYRIE-How is it there were three or four who did not sign the memorial,
Do they object ?
Mr. NELSON-I have not heard of anyone absolutely objecting. I know one or two have said they would like to consider the matter further.
Mr. RYBIE-Are there not three or four in the Colony who have not consented to sign that?
Mr. NELSON-I should think there are. The Secretary will tell you that.
The Cars JUSTICE-You made your ap- plication by direction of the Board?
Mr. NELSON-Yes.
The GOVERNOR-Has any shareholder to your knowledge, recorded his objection to thie bill ?
Mr. NELSON-Certainly not. I know of no shareholder who does object.
The Cnter JuSTICE-None have objected to you?
Mr. NELSON-No.
Mr. KYRIE-Did they not object when it was taken to them for signature?
Mr. NELSON-As I said before, two or three, when it was taken to them, said they would like to consider it.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-Then they did not ob- jeut P
Mr. NELSON-There was no formal objection, so far as I am aware.
Mr. RYBIE These seven shares you say you bave still unalloted, have you had no application for them?
Mr. NELSON--We have invited none. Mr. RYRIE-Why?
Mr. NELSON-For certain reasons. I can state them if you wish.
Mr. RYRE-Do you think you could not place them immediately?
Mr. NELSON-Yes.
Mr. KESWICK-But have there been no ap- plications?
Mr. NELSON-Noge have been invited. Mr. KESWICK-But have there been no applications?
Mr. NELSON-No; it is not generally known that we have these shares in our hande, It has not been notified to the public in any way. Mr. KESWICK-You say $1,000 has been paid on each of the seven shares ?
Mr. NELSON-Yes, they belonged to partners in Augustine Heard & Co., and became forfeited to us on their failure.
Mr. KESWICK-I think it ought to be more learly stated that the extension of the number of the sharea is as great an object, if not a greater object, than the reduction of the
amount.
Mr. NELSON-What we want to do is to reduce the amount with view of inducing a larger number of shareholders. Both these objects will be achieved.
Mr. RYRIE-Have you formed any idea of bow many you will have at your disposal to re-allot ?
Mr. NELSON-We will have none. Mr. RYRIE-How do you propose to get them ?
Mr. NELSON-Because there will be more in the market,
Mr. KYRIE-That seems very problematical. I know if I bad one share and it was divided into three I would not sell one. Ifa sbare were
sold to any undesirable person- ---
Mr. NELSON-We would not admit him. It is the same as in other companies.
175
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